. >> well, i personally think the social science leading me to the conclusion it matters less than what happens outside of the schools. and i think if you look at the comparative data we have from pisa, let's look at the places doing it right. that have a whole variety of educational systems, poland, finland, there are a lot of different practices. the thing that jumps out, they have a lot less poor kids, many, many fewer kids. >> let's look at what you're trying to say, to your point, let's look at pisa, if you look in the united states from 2003 until now, on the pisa test, actually, the poorest kids in this country have gained about 11 points. the richest kids in this country have actually fallen by some points. so the small gains we've seen in the nation have been accomplished by the poorest children. that says, even though kids are growing up in poverty. even though they have tremendous challenges we can still expect that if we have the right school environments, they can learn, and thrive and grow academically. >> they can learn and thrive and grow academically, but what i'm tryin